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	<title>Comments on: It&#8217;s Guest Blog Wednesday Featuring: Stephen Johnson</title>
	<link>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659</link>
	<description>Scoops, tips and comments published exclusively for personal friends of Scott Kelby</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 04:39:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: vickie</title>
		<link>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-73266</link>
		<author>vickie</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-73266</guid>
		<description>I recently dug my old 35mm camera out of the dust in my closet and actually bought several rolls of film.  It was time to see if I could still really shoot without photoshop to rescue me.  

I almost had a sense of freedom as I uncapped the lens cover.  It was also kind of frightening.  I took the rolls of film to a one-hour lab and anxiously waited to see the results.  

One thing I tried to remember as I took the photos was to expose very critically because these were "real" photos.  I found that using a non-digital camera did truly make me slow down and make adjustments in-camera that I might have relied upon photoshop to "fix" had I been shooting digitally. 

I get it, Stephen.  No one should be offended or insulted by your very 
philosophical comments and I am happy to have someone confer with me that perhaps a little more time shooting and composing is in order.  Very simply, we are all reading this post because of our love for  capturing the world around us.

We still love and need NAPP and remain, admittedly, addicted to Scott's blog and the hugh body of learning that is provided by NAPP. However, our best work should not need much "fixing".  I love "tweaking" in photoshop but I don't desire having a crutch to keep me upright.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recently dug my old 35mm camera out of the dust in my closet and actually bought several rolls of film.  It was time to see if I could still really shoot without photoshop to rescue me.  </p>
<p>I almost had a sense of freedom as I uncapped the lens cover.  It was also kind of frightening.  I took the rolls of film to a one-hour lab and anxiously waited to see the results.  </p>
<p>One thing I tried to remember as I took the photos was to expose very critically because these were &#8220;real&#8221; photos.  I found that using a non-digital camera did truly make me slow down and make adjustments in-camera that I might have relied upon photoshop to &#8220;fix&#8221; had I been shooting digitally. </p>
<p>I get it, Stephen.  No one should be offended or insulted by your very<br />
philosophical comments and I am happy to have someone confer with me that perhaps a little more time shooting and composing is in order.  Very simply, we are all reading this post because of our love for  capturing the world around us.</p>
<p>We still love and need NAPP and remain, admittedly, addicted to Scott&#8217;s blog and the hugh body of learning that is provided by NAPP. However, our best work should not need much &#8220;fixing&#8221;.  I love &#8220;tweaking&#8221; in photoshop but I don&#8217;t desire having a crutch to keep me upright.</p>
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		<title>By: Friday&#8217;s Resource Roundup &#124; PixelatedImage Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72856</link>
		<author>Friday&#8217;s Resource Roundup &#124; PixelatedImage Blog</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 09:02:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72856</guid>
		<description>[...] of sexy tips and tricks, be sure to read Stephen Johnson&#8217;s guest post on Scott Kelby&#8217;s blog this week. He&#8217;s tapping in to the whole &#8220;addicted to HOW&#8221; stream of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] of sexy tips and tricks, be sure to read Stephen Johnson&#8217;s guest post on Scott Kelby&#8217;s blog this week. He&#8217;s tapping in to the whole &#8220;addicted to HOW&#8221; stream of [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Whetton</title>
		<link>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72838</link>
		<author>Richard Whetton</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 08:00:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72838</guid>
		<description>Thanks Stephen for a very thought provoking and insightful blog.

I have been guilty many times of blasting away with the shutter button and not really thinking about the image I need intend to create till I got back home and went through the 'data' (because it was little more) that I had collected.

Thinking about my own photography in the light of your blog, I realise that my biggest successes have been where I set out with a clear image of what I wanted to do before pressing the shutter button. I shall try and focus more upon this pre-visualisation  before pressing the shutter in future. This is also true of images where I did a fair amount of post processing - the most successful ones where when I had a clear vision of what I wanted to do at the start - i.e. before I hit the shutter.

There have been a fair number of critical comments posted. I think that is a little unfair. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and to state it, but it is entirely possible to do without being personal and I feel a few of the comments here have crossed that line. Even though someone doesn't agree that does not make another's view point wrong - just different. Discussion is always healthy as it is the crucible of ideas, but should be done with due respect.

For those of you who do give so freely of your time and expertise please keep it up, for each person out there who comes back negatively I am sure there are many more who are inspired - I know I am.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Stephen for a very thought provoking and insightful blog.</p>
<p>I have been guilty many times of blasting away with the shutter button and not really thinking about the image I need intend to create till I got back home and went through the &#8216;data&#8217; (because it was little more) that I had collected.</p>
<p>Thinking about my own photography in the light of your blog, I realise that my biggest successes have been where I set out with a clear image of what I wanted to do before pressing the shutter button. I shall try and focus more upon this pre-visualisation  before pressing the shutter in future. This is also true of images where I did a fair amount of post processing - the most successful ones where when I had a clear vision of what I wanted to do at the start - i.e. before I hit the shutter.</p>
<p>There have been a fair number of critical comments posted. I think that is a little unfair. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and to state it, but it is entirely possible to do without being personal and I feel a few of the comments here have crossed that line. Even though someone doesn&#8217;t agree that does not make another&#8217;s view point wrong - just different. Discussion is always healthy as it is the crucible of ideas, but should be done with due respect.</p>
<p>For those of you who do give so freely of your time and expertise please keep it up, for each person out there who comes back negatively I am sure there are many more who are inspired - I know I am.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72761</link>
		<author>Stephen</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 00:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72761</guid>
		<description>I think there's a misconception about what "getting it right in the camera" means. A lot of the people commenting here seem to take it quite literally, that it means getting it right in the camera so it can go straight to print, no post-processing necessary.

From my talks with both amateur and professional photographers, shooters of film and digital, and in my own shooting experience, I take it to mean just spending time to make sure you're thinking about composition, depth of field, light to dark relationships, and contrast and capturing that as accurately as a film emulsion or digital sensor can.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there&#8217;s a misconception about what &#8220;getting it right in the camera&#8221; means. A lot of the people commenting here seem to take it quite literally, that it means getting it right in the camera so it can go straight to print, no post-processing necessary.</p>
<p>From my talks with both amateur and professional photographers, shooters of film and digital, and in my own shooting experience, I take it to mean just spending time to make sure you&#8217;re thinking about composition, depth of field, light to dark relationships, and contrast and capturing that as accurately as a film emulsion or digital sensor can.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Beyers</title>
		<link>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72690</link>
		<author>Craig Beyers</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:55:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72690</guid>
		<description>I'm amused about the concept of "digital" photography as something that's apparently a new, radical concept, juxtaposed with the idea that manipulation of images isn't artor it IS art...sometimes I get confused . One point I drew from Mr. Johnson's post was that mere manipulation of an image doesn't make it art. Another is "get the image in the camera", where I interpret that to mean "get the best image you can so you have the most to work with". Ansel Adams visualized the end result--the print--then took the best image he could so he could end up with the best print. The negative--like our digital images--had to be the best he could do as the best foundation for the best print. Remember, Adams didn't sell negatives, he sold prints. In our digital world we now have multiple end products for our digital negatives--prints, web-based images, slide shows, collages/montages, etc. So, Mr. Johnson's point was to get the best image in the camera and use the tools--Photoshop, plug-ins, etc.--appropriately to get the output you want rather than depending on those tools to draw the art from any image. It's really hard to get a great print from a crummy image (but you can easily get a "bad" print from a "great" image by using image editing tools).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m amused about the concept of &#8220;digital&#8221; photography as something that&#8217;s apparently a new, radical concept, juxtaposed with the idea that manipulation of images isn&#8217;t artor it IS art&#8230;sometimes I get confused . One point I drew from Mr. Johnson&#8217;s post was that mere manipulation of an image doesn&#8217;t make it art. Another is &#8220;get the image in the camera&#8221;, where I interpret that to mean &#8220;get the best image you can so you have the most to work with&#8221;. Ansel Adams visualized the end result&#8211;the print&#8211;then took the best image he could so he could end up with the best print. The negative&#8211;like our digital images&#8211;had to be the best he could do as the best foundation for the best print. Remember, Adams didn&#8217;t sell negatives, he sold prints. In our digital world we now have multiple end products for our digital negatives&#8211;prints, web-based images, slide shows, collages/montages, etc. So, Mr. Johnson&#8217;s point was to get the best image in the camera and use the tools&#8211;Photoshop, plug-ins, etc.&#8211;appropriately to get the output you want rather than depending on those tools to draw the art from any image. It&#8217;s really hard to get a great print from a crummy image (but you can easily get a &#8220;bad&#8221; print from a &#8220;great&#8221; image by using image editing tools).</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Nelson</title>
		<link>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72686</link>
		<author>Ron Nelson</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 17:37:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72686</guid>
		<description>I, too, have attended one of Stephen's workshops and can attest to his great insight and skill. As an amateur photographer I struggle with capturing what I "see" in the field into a representative image. One of the great benefits I got from Stephen's workshop was a greater appreciation that technology is getting smarter but is no substitute for the person holding the camera and doing intended acts. 

It requires significant effort to acquire the knowledge  a photographer needs to evaluate the scene, select the composition, lighting and settings that captures the optimal RAW image. Photoshop and other RAW processing software can be a crutch that actually inhibits  necessary personal development since it gives photographers an opportunity to leisurely and comfortably adjust images taken hastily and with minimal thought. Sometimes that's all you've got. But if your objective is Fine Art (and that is what Stephen is -- a Fine Art photographer) then it starts with making the best RAW capture in the context of the place and the circumstances. 

Technical wizardry masterfully applied to create "better than real" images that are evocative or provocative have their place. But Stephen is in search of the best representation of an actual place and moment. And if you are, too, use camera skills not Photoshop skills to capture as much as possible in the camera.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I, too, have attended one of Stephen&#8217;s workshops and can attest to his great insight and skill. As an amateur photographer I struggle with capturing what I &#8220;see&#8221; in the field into a representative image. One of the great benefits I got from Stephen&#8217;s workshop was a greater appreciation that technology is getting smarter but is no substitute for the person holding the camera and doing intended acts. </p>
<p>It requires significant effort to acquire the knowledge  a photographer needs to evaluate the scene, select the composition, lighting and settings that captures the optimal RAW image. Photoshop and other RAW processing software can be a crutch that actually inhibits  necessary personal development since it gives photographers an opportunity to leisurely and comfortably adjust images taken hastily and with minimal thought. Sometimes that&#8217;s all you&#8217;ve got. But if your objective is Fine Art (and that is what Stephen is &#8212; a Fine Art photographer) then it starts with making the best RAW capture in the context of the place and the circumstances. </p>
<p>Technical wizardry masterfully applied to create &#8220;better than real&#8221; images that are evocative or provocative have their place. But Stephen is in search of the best representation of an actual place and moment. And if you are, too, use camera skills not Photoshop skills to capture as much as possible in the camera.</p>
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		<title>By: Alessandro Rosa</title>
		<link>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72631</link>
		<author>Alessandro Rosa</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:52:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72631</guid>
		<description>To Holly and Silvia, et al,

I don't think that the craft of photography and making a photo has diminished with digital, it is just that it has changed. We as photographers can do things differently now because of the nature of freedom and information that the tools today provide us than we did in the past.

Holly is a graphich designer. Just think of what it would be like if you had to do a design on a computer that had no monitor. And you wouldn't see the results until it went to press. That is a similar idea to what film photography was. And does that mean that film photographers needed to be more proficent in their craft. Yes and no. They needed to be able to know how everything worked, how lighting would be, how film would react without the feedback. Digital I think frees you to concentrate on other things that are part of creating an image.

While I think that Mr. Johnson's idea that the focus needs to be on the taking of the image and less on the editing of the image had its merits, I think that it is a mindset that is limited and stuck in the days film. Photography's paradigm has shifted and I don't think that Mr. Johnson's thinking, even though he was a digitial "pioneer," at least expressed in this post has shifted far enough to embrace the new model which is digital photography.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Holly and Silvia, et al,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that the craft of photography and making a photo has diminished with digital, it is just that it has changed. We as photographers can do things differently now because of the nature of freedom and information that the tools today provide us than we did in the past.</p>
<p>Holly is a graphich designer. Just think of what it would be like if you had to do a design on a computer that had no monitor. And you wouldn&#8217;t see the results until it went to press. That is a similar idea to what film photography was. And does that mean that film photographers needed to be more proficent in their craft. Yes and no. They needed to be able to know how everything worked, how lighting would be, how film would react without the feedback. Digital I think frees you to concentrate on other things that are part of creating an image.</p>
<p>While I think that Mr. Johnson&#8217;s idea that the focus needs to be on the taking of the image and less on the editing of the image had its merits, I think that it is a mindset that is limited and stuck in the days film. Photography&#8217;s paradigm has shifted and I don&#8217;t think that Mr. Johnson&#8217;s thinking, even though he was a digitial &#8220;pioneer,&#8221; at least expressed in this post has shifted far enough to embrace the new model which is digital photography.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72629</link>
		<author>John</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 13:38:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72629</guid>
		<description>As Steve made clear in his response to David Robertson, his blog was a very personal statement of what he wanted "his" photographs to be.  Part of the beauty of being an amateur is that you can make it whatever you desire and go in whatever direction you desire.  That doesn't mean that you don't work very hard, maybe harder than many professionals, but you do have the luxury of working to please yourself.  Something that I have noticed is that the photographers whose work I appreciate the most seem to spend minimal time post-processing.  Versace's DVDs on Capture NX 2 demonstrate a very quick post-processing workflow.  Furthermore, when Photoshop whiz kid, Matt Kloskowski, who knows Photoshop inside and out, talks about his own personal workflow, it is short and sweet.  One of Scott Kelby's most popular books draws our attention to seven steps, all of which are seldom used.  However, those who drew our attention to Ansel Adams were right on the mark; the importance of his darkroom work is legendary. These Wednesday blogs are absolutely terrific!  They have definitely helped me in getting a better fix on where I wish to go with my own photography</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Steve made clear in his response to David Robertson, his blog was a very personal statement of what he wanted &#8220;his&#8221; photographs to be.  Part of the beauty of being an amateur is that you can make it whatever you desire and go in whatever direction you desire.  That doesn&#8217;t mean that you don&#8217;t work very hard, maybe harder than many professionals, but you do have the luxury of working to please yourself.  Something that I have noticed is that the photographers whose work I appreciate the most seem to spend minimal time post-processing.  Versace&#8217;s DVDs on Capture NX 2 demonstrate a very quick post-processing workflow.  Furthermore, when Photoshop whiz kid, Matt Kloskowski, who knows Photoshop inside and out, talks about his own personal workflow, it is short and sweet.  One of Scott Kelby&#8217;s most popular books draws our attention to seven steps, all of which are seldom used.  However, those who drew our attention to Ansel Adams were right on the mark; the importance of his darkroom work is legendary. These Wednesday blogs are absolutely terrific!  They have definitely helped me in getting a better fix on where I wish to go with my own photography</p>
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		<title>By: Silvia</title>
		<link>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72559</link>
		<author>Silvia</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 07:40:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72559</guid>
		<description>Whoa!
This discussion has really highlighted one of the central issues facing photographers - where does the heart of our craft lie?
Is it with the seeing eye and the camera, in the moment of capture? Or later when we re-appraise an image and "work" on it in Photoshop?

Surely the truth lies somewhere in the middle? It's important to make the best image we can - in the moment, as the shutter clicks. But, part of our craft, lies in revisiting the image and working on it in the digital darkroom. Both these processes call for judgement, sensitivity and a unique vision. Together they contribute to the making of a "fine" image.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoa!<br />
This discussion has really highlighted one of the central issues facing photographers - where does the heart of our craft lie?<br />
Is it with the seeing eye and the camera, in the moment of capture? Or later when we re-appraise an image and &#8220;work&#8221; on it in Photoshop?</p>
<p>Surely the truth lies somewhere in the middle? It&#8217;s important to make the best image we can - in the moment, as the shutter clicks. But, part of our craft, lies in revisiting the image and working on it in the digital darkroom. Both these processes call for judgement, sensitivity and a unique vision. Together they contribute to the making of a &#8220;fine&#8221; image.</p>
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		<title>By: julie r</title>
		<link>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72515</link>
		<author>julie r</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 02:32:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72515</guid>
		<description>Well, I loved this blog!  As someone new to digital (only about 2 years) I sometimes feel discouraged with not only the learning curve on Photoshop, but the constant bombardment of "tips, tricks, and techniques" from everywhere.  It makes me feel like I'll never get there from here -- never be savvy enough with Photoshop.

Thanks Stephen for reminding me that I don't have to be a Photoshop guru to make a great photograph.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I loved this blog!  As someone new to digital (only about 2 years) I sometimes feel discouraged with not only the learning curve on Photoshop, but the constant bombardment of &#8220;tips, tricks, and techniques&#8221; from everywhere.  It makes me feel like I&#8217;ll never get there from here &#8212; never be savvy enough with Photoshop.</p>
<p>Thanks Stephen for reminding me that I don&#8217;t have to be a Photoshop guru to make a great photograph.</p>
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		<title>By: Holly</title>
		<link>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72505</link>
		<author>Holly</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:59:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72505</guid>
		<description>I've got to say I agree a lot with what Stephen says. I was classically educated in college. My photography courses were in 35mm film. We even made our own camera's out of Quaker Oats containers. We were taught about lighting, composition, f-stops and in the darkroom spent endless hours trying understanding the chemistry. I really enjoyed it and it was an immense challenge for me which I have to say I handled fairly well. But, when I started my professional career as a graphic designer photos were something I used in layouts, not something I concentrated on creating. I have always been and will always be envious of  the Photographers of my industry. The lighting possibilities alone boggle my mind. And I've often wondered in the last few years how they are making the transition to digital. It seems like a new world entirely.

I've been developing skills in digital photography over the last 3 or 4 years now and I have to say I almost feel a bit guilty at how simple it is to just snap and edit on the computer. I've wondered what has happened to that craft that is photography. Then I turned the settings on my digital camera to manual and actually started experimenting with settings and lighting and have found that I don't need to do as much editing in Photoshop as I used to. I personally love the challenge of getting it right in the camera. Of course in my line of work it really does all depend on the final outcome of the image you're looking for. Sometimes I just need an object shot to be used "creatively" in a composition. Other times I need a realistic photograph of a setting, person, or object to be represented as itself. 
In any event, with the nature of the beast being what it is, the speed at which I need to accomplish these tasks gets shorter and shorter,thanks to our ever evolving technology, digital photography is the tool for the job.

Thanks for grounding us Stephen. I think those that haven't had the privilege of a classic education might miss your point...but I get it all the way. But I do still love my Photoshop time too :)

Thank!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve got to say I agree a lot with what Stephen says. I was classically educated in college. My photography courses were in 35mm film. We even made our own camera&#8217;s out of Quaker Oats containers. We were taught about lighting, composition, f-stops and in the darkroom spent endless hours trying understanding the chemistry. I really enjoyed it and it was an immense challenge for me which I have to say I handled fairly well. But, when I started my professional career as a graphic designer photos were something I used in layouts, not something I concentrated on creating. I have always been and will always be envious of  the Photographers of my industry. The lighting possibilities alone boggle my mind. And I&#8217;ve often wondered in the last few years how they are making the transition to digital. It seems like a new world entirely.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been developing skills in digital photography over the last 3 or 4 years now and I have to say I almost feel a bit guilty at how simple it is to just snap and edit on the computer. I&#8217;ve wondered what has happened to that craft that is photography. Then I turned the settings on my digital camera to manual and actually started experimenting with settings and lighting and have found that I don&#8217;t need to do as much editing in Photoshop as I used to. I personally love the challenge of getting it right in the camera. Of course in my line of work it really does all depend on the final outcome of the image you&#8217;re looking for. Sometimes I just need an object shot to be used &#8220;creatively&#8221; in a composition. Other times I need a realistic photograph of a setting, person, or object to be represented as itself.<br />
In any event, with the nature of the beast being what it is, the speed at which I need to accomplish these tasks gets shorter and shorter,thanks to our ever evolving technology, digital photography is the tool for the job.</p>
<p>Thanks for grounding us Stephen. I think those that haven&#8217;t had the privilege of a classic education might miss your point&#8230;but I get it all the way. But I do still love my Photoshop time too <img src='http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Thank!</p>
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		<title>By: Neil</title>
		<link>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72502</link>
		<author>Neil</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 01:07:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/2008/archives/1659#comment-72502</guid>
		<description>I would add that the style of photography dictates how many pictures you take. If there's a lot of action, you gotta burst those digital frames! So it's not at all unusual for me to have a great deal of pics in a day. After all, I can't tell the cormorant to get back into position. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would add that the style of photography dictates how many pictures you take. If there&#8217;s a lot of action, you gotta burst those digital frames! So it&#8217;s not at all unusual for me to have a great deal of pics in a day. After all, I can&#8217;t tell the cormorant to get back into position. <img src='http://www.scottkelby.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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