It’s “Guest Blog Wednesday” featuring Andrew Rodney

Photoshop and I are getting old(er)! I started working with Photoshop 1.0.7 in May 1990, only a few months after its release. It’s hard to believe we are both 18 years older. It’s been amazing to see Photoshop grow over the years and an honor working with Adobe as a beta and alpha tester since version 2.5. I’ve seen a lot of products over the years attempt to compete with Photoshop. Anyone remember Color Studio, X-Res, or Live Picture?
One of the most exciting image processing products I’ve worked with since the introduction of Photoshop is Lightroom. For those of us working with Photoshop for many years, Lightroom represents (excuse the cliché) a quantum paradigm shift with respect to image processing. Mark Hamburg, Lightroom’s architect has described Lightroom as being “The Anti-Photoshopâ€. It’s OK for Mark to say this considering he was the chief Photoshop architect for years before creating Lightroom.
Applying a Photoshop bias towards Lightroom can be problematic; Lightroom operates in a totally different manner. Lightroom targets a core user group, provides a unique set of functionality while having the ability to work with lots of images at once. Photoshop is a pixel editor targeted to many groups of users. From day one, it was designed to work on one image at a time. Sure, you can use Droplets, Actions and Automate commands to process multiple documents, but essentially you’re opening each, full resolution pixel based document into RAM, altering some or all pixels and saving these newly baked pixels back into the document.
At its core, Lightroom, like its older brother, Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) is a raw processor that creates idealized pixels using metadata-based instructions. You define these instructions and the original data, which is never altered, is used to build a new, desirable appearing image. You’re never baking a color appearance into a pixel-based image until you export or print this new data.
Some Photoshop users dive into Lightroom’s Develop module and expect the controls to behave like Photoshop’s controls. That’s often a risky expectation. For example, both ACR and Lightroom’s develop tools are presented in an optimal working order; top down, then left to right in the case of ACR. Some old time Photoshop users gravitate directly to Lightroom’s curves since in Photoshop curves are the tool to alter color and tone. Yet Lightroom’s curves are presented below other develop control sliders. It’s really designed for fine-tuning. While you can work with the tools in Lightroom in any order you wish (Lightroom is real smart about automatically applying all the metadata instructions in the ideal processing order), you may end up chasing your tail by ignoring this orderly design. This is vastly different in Photoshop where you’re affecting pixels on a per-edit basis and working in differing order, even altering the position of adjustment layers, can cause undesirable results and wasted time.
I recently had a conversation about Lightroom’s Develop controls with the head of the photo department at a major university. He told me he didn’t like the sliders and I asked why. “They remind me of the Photoshop Contrast and Brightness sliders and we all know these are poor toolsâ€. The sliders in Lightroom don’t behave at all like Contrast and Brightness in Photoshop. Plus the hair on the back of my neck always rises when someone says “but we all know….â€. We don’t all know. In fact, there are situations where these tools could provide a desired result. I tried to convince this new Lightroom user that he should remove his Photoshop bias and try working with the controls in the order provided. If at such a time he can’t produce the desired color and tone appearance, then we might investigate if this is indeed a flaw in the application (not likely with the pretty smart Adobe engineers) or if there’s a flaw in the usage of the toolset. Its often the later. Suggesting that curves in Photoshop and Lightroom should operate identically fails the logic tests because the source data is so different as is the final image processing. You can see the same disconnect if you play with the exposure tools on a Raw in Lightroom versus the Exposure or Shadow/Highlight tools on a rendered image in Photoshop. The tools may have the same name, yet the processing and results are often significantly different.
Another bias I’ve seen is the idea of being very casual in handling your raw rendering and “fixing†the image later in Photoshop. There’s a kind of macho mentality, (or maybe its just due to familiarity), that cause some users to dismiss rendering the best possible image data before using Photoshop. This is the old “I’ll fix it in Photoshop†mindset. Never forget GIGO: Garbage in, garbage out! The result of edits applied in Lightroom and ACR is a totally new image, from either an existing rendered image (TIFF, JPEG) or better, raw. Edits are applied on high-bit linear data using the greatest color gamut from the raw data. It therefore makes sense to do all the heavy lifting, in terms of producing the desired color appearance, with such tools, long before you even consider launching Photoshop.
Those who’ve used Lightroom for a while often say, “I’m doing so much less work in Photoshopâ€. Some may find this alarming, almost criminal. Photoshop hasn’t lost its shine and is still an indispensable tool. Lightroom and ACR provide new ways of bringing ideal data into Photoshop. Use Photoshop’s vast arsenal of tools to do the work that makes most sense: Layers and blending modes, compositing, precise retouching, and perspective control, to name a few. Global tone and color “correctionâ€? Not if you can create the preferred, global and tone rendering of new pixels using Lightroom. The toolset in Lightroom and Photoshop do overlap in some areas, but both complement each other. The message here is abandon the bias and use the right tool for the right job.


















For someone about to begin incorporating Lightroom 2.0 into my workflow, this has been extremely clarifying. We have all spent so much time mastering the complexities and joys of Photoshop that it can be hard to let go. But now that we can do so much nondestructively, it only makes sense to work without degrading the image while retaining unlimited flexibility. Thanks for opening our eyes to a new way of working, letting each program do what it does best.
I am working through Dan Margulis’s Picture Postcard Workflow at the moment on the kelbytraining site. I also use Lightroom as part of my workflow… I understand the advantage of processing a picture as much as possible in it’s RAW form before moving into Photoshop proper.
Dan’s training has a heavy color correction element to it, performed in Photoshop. As far as I can see it would be very tricky to perform the tasks Dan is proposing in Lightroom rather than Photoshop (he uses LAB color space to analyse the image).
This leaves me wondering… is it best to then adjust exposure and white balance of my RAW images in Lightroom and then move to Photoshop for the color correction analysis using Curves and then move onto other creative options?
Thanks for the blog entry either way as it is a very relevant topic I think.
Andrew, I agree with you completely. I have watched my work go from where all of my images went though Photoshop to where now only 10% or so get that level of treatment. [Unfortunately all that are going to be a print still have to make that Photoshop trip for softproofing .... and, hopefully that can get fixed sometime soon.] All of the other 90% get everything they need done to them in LR2 — due to applying good techniques at the time of capture and then using the global and local tools now available in LR2. It is quite a change for someone that started with Photoshop 4 (not quite as long ago as you did) and was convinced for a long time that if you did not take the image through Photoshop it “was not done”.
Thanks for the article……
Hi Andrew,
Thanks for this enlightening article. I’m a little different than most folks. My first introduction to Raw was a few years ago just before Lightroom 1.0 was released. I start using Lightroom before Photoshop. Weird, I know. I’ve since purchased Photoshop CS3, and have found that most of my workflow is done in Lightroom. I do use Photoshop when I need layers to accomplish a specific task. I do not print out of Photoshop. I have found that my prints are much more accurate using Lightroom.
Thanks again for your article!
Dennis
Interesting article but a bit of the old Adobe marketing coming through. Why buy one product, buy both.
It still doesn’t really help that you have two applications to do things. Realistically Adobe is going to have to bite the bullet so that the majority of photographers have just the one app. Even if its another develop module called Artistry or something which runs Photoshop inside it.
I imagine the next major version of Aperture will raise its game to do this and then it will be some hard decisions for Adobe. LR2 was too early to do the change it but Apple will push Adobe towards it in the next 18 months.
>Interesting article but a bit of the old Adobe marketing coming through. Why buy one product, buy both.
Actually everything I wrote about relates to ACR which is part of Photoshop (not something additional you have to buy).
Hi Andrew,
I shoot almost all of my images in Raw and use ACR a lot. I never really got into Lightroom, but after seeing the new tools in the new Lightroom2, I’m sure I will use it more.
Your article really made sense to me especially the area where Photoshop opens an image and loads it into RAM. So this must mean that by using LR2 my memory won’t bog down so quickly, hence I would be able to work faster.
Thank you for a very well written article.
Thank you Scott Kelby for having this man as a guest blogger,
Mike
Excellent post here Andrew! We all have biases and this just goes to show the dangers in succumbing to those biases. Not only do we need to use the right tool for the job, but we need to keep our minds open for new improvements to ease our workflow. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here – I always learn something from what you have to say.
I’ve gotta say I get it now. I don’t use Lightroom (at the moment anyway). But, I do use ACR and I love the ease of just going down the row of tools. Some are used more than others but I love that there is that ease of one and a time kind of thing. In the past (and still today) I have become daunted by the endless possibilities lurking in Photoshop all the menus and sub menus and hidden tricks and it took me a long time to find a regular routine with process images. But I’ve saved myself lots of time doing some of the major things in ACR then taking the image into Photoshop for layer affects, blending images etc…I even find I have more time to experiment with other tools or try out some of the tips and tricks I’ve learned through NAPP…
I’m a designer more than photographer so most of the time my photos are mixed in with other forms of digital design to create layout comps or images for product packaging. I can also say I’ve gained respect again for a photograph being a photograph, just from working in ACR. I think this digital world has given anyone the ability to be creative that it has taken away the reality of what we actually do and are working with. Before digital photography was something I sat in awe of. With digital, I’ve dived into a world of amazing possibilities, but at first got lost and forgot about what I was actually dealing with. Using ACR has brought me back around and now I am again in awe of photography, and that I’m able to actually be one myself to a certain degree. And, even if its going to get filtered to death in some hip design layout, in the beginning its still a photograph and I think that is important for any designer or photographer to realize and understand how to treat it that way. Great article, I really have loved the Guest Blog Wednesdays
Thanks
hope my ramblings made sense :S
Thanks for the interesting article, as someone who has used Photoshop for awhile and is just now starting to use Lightroom your perspective is helpful. In the short time I’ve used Lightroom I’ve definitely noticed that I do less in Photoshop. However, like another user posted here, I’m unsure on how to integrate Lightroom into processes like the Picture Postcard process described by Dan Margulis. I also wonder how something like Lightroom 2 should fit in Scott Kelby’s 7 Step approach to developing images in Photoshop.
Thanks!
I always do my lightroom adjustments in a “top down” fashion – it’s nice to know that it was intentionally designed that way and I’m not just being weird
Personally I love the lightroom “paradigm” I’ve been using it since the original beta, and it was great then and has only been growing on me since…
Hi Andrew… Thanks for your valuable insights… It’s has taken me a bit of time to start using Lightroom kicking and screaming… but with Scott, Matt, and Julieanne I’m starting to really like it… With you comments about using it from top down, I think that’s brilliant… you alway have something brilliant to share… many thanks… Eddie
David Kerr and James Howe: Dan Margulis considered the question of whether you get better results by knocking the image into shape first with a raw converter (ACR or Lightroom for example, although he wrote this about ACR). See Chapter 16 of Professional Photoshop, 5th Edition. He concluded at the time that he didn’t see a benefit.
I have both LR and PS, and I use the develop module adjustments only to make a quick “proof” of an image if I’m helping someone else select a winner from a set of pictures. I love LR for its cataloging, previewing, packaging, and many other features.
However, the things I can correct in the main section of the sliders I’m going to knock off anyway in curves during the “once for color” and “once for contrast” steps in the Picture Postcard workflow. I need those steps to knock out highlight or shadow-specific casts and allocate contrast properly in the image. I find that I can’t make those sorts of adjustments effectively in Lightroom.
But all of that is just me. I’ve shown this curves-based stuff to a few friends and it has not appealed to any of them. They like the results, but find curves to be unintuitive. You open up the curves dialog to do something and then … what? That’s before we even get into the esoteric stuff with channels ‘n blurs ‘n blends. Oh my!
For my friends and I sure many others, Lightroom appeals because it provides controls that let them work directly on the issues that they want to address in their images. The interface gives them a logical order and lets them concentrate on one aspect at a time. As Lightroom evolves, I’m sure we’ll see more and more abilities to make localized corrections.
I’d sure love an additional module in Lightroom that is just current Photoshop so I don’t feel like I’m driving over the hill on each image to get there. But Photoshop is so foreign to the editing model of Lightroom that I don’t know how that would work.
>However, like another user posted here, I’m unsure on how to integrate Lightroom into processes like the Picture Postcard process described by Dan Margulis. I also wonder how something like Lightroom 2 should fit in Scott Kelby’s 7 Step approach to developing images in Photoshop.
From the perspective of global tone and color rendering (or if you must, “correction”), what can’t you do in LR or ACR that requires the other techniques? Can you do most of the work in LR/ACR with the current tools? Those are the questions to ask first.
I like to think of rendering as pixel creation. I think of work in Photoshop as pixel alteration (fixing). The Raw rendering stage really is the digital darkroom part of the process. If you’ve worked in a conventional darkroom (color or B&W), you know you can nail the exposure for the print paper OR you can be off and leave the paper in the developer (to a point) and get an OK image. The later is of course not best practice and takes time.
Before we even think about this person’s or that person’s Photoshop technique, step back, ask if you have the Raw original (some don’t) and can you do the work at the rendering stage, creating ideal pixels. If not, how close can you get? Only at that point would I jump on a Photoshop technique, at least one that’s global in nature. Maybe you don’t need any further global work. If so, you’ve just produced superior data in less time. You’ve got the ability to create multiple iterations from one data source (Raw) using virtual copies. Why build half a dozen, 70mb files when you can have one Raw source and half a dozen metadata instructions which take up no space and can be infinitely altered?
The bias many have is to “fix” the image in Photoshop when it wasn’t broken to begin with. That is, the Raw data could be rendered to produce all or most of the color appearance you wish to produce. In so many cases, there’s nothing to fix because nothing was broke. A careless rendering from Raw, or a poor scan isn’t a good excuse to fix the problems in Photoshop. Fix the scan (or Raw rendering). Get the exposure right, don’t push the film (or over develop the print) when the so called problem was applied earlier in the process.
Get it right in the capture (good exposure, focus, etc)
Then get it right in rendering (Raw processing)
THEN resort to Photoshop or use Photoshop for the local corrections and special effects you wish to achieve.
Awesome article Rodney! Well said buddy.
Hey Andrew….Do you know if Adobe is thinking of or would this even work about having a Photoshop Module in Lightroom. Maybe call it the Photographers Complete Edition. I hope they are thinking of it.
Thanks, Andrew, for a terrific description of when/how to use which application. My Photoshop and Digital Photography students are intrigued by Lightroom (some are now using it), and I’m often asked which one they should use. I generally recommend that they have both at their disposal, but your post gives me additional clarification for explaining WHY they might want both, and at what part of the workflow each might be considered.
>Hey Andrew….Do you know if Adobe is thinking of or would this even work about having a Photoshop Module in Lightroom. Maybe call it the Photographers Complete Edition. I hope they are thinking of it.
IF I tell you what’s coming, we both get killed
I’m not sure what you mean by a Photoshop module. Again, the two applications are totally different in terms of what they do with differing data. LR only builds pixels upon export or print. Photoshop alters those rendered pixels by altering the math (numbers) of each pixel affected. I don’t see how the two could or would connect differently than they do today (export rendered images to PS, operate in PS, show doc in LR library).
Photoshop, too, can work up an image from a starting point and a set of corrections without saving a fully-rendered image at each step. Consider for example a set of adjustment layers. It’s just that in Photoshop, some operations (like switching color spaces) require that you flatten the layer stack first. Adobe could change that but I’m sure they have higher priority work to attend to.
I don’t follow the analogy of improperly exposing a darkroom print and trying to fix it in the development process. In the darkroom case, the improper exposure of the print affects the image in irreversible ways. In the digital case, that analogy better supports making minimal changes in the RAW to RGB conversion to avoid introducing problems that are difficult to fix later.
I think the “win” is if you can make all the color correction / contrast changes in LR that you want and do completely different sorts of work in Photoshop or skip the Photoshop step altogether.
it would be nice if lightroom could display histograms in other working spaces. i can have a perfect histo in lightroom, only to find my exported adobe rgb file to be clipped. sure, i could export prophoto rgb files, but i have no need for such files, and don’t want to take the time to properly convert prophoto files to adobe rgb files. so I export images that are flatter than what i’d like into photoshop, then finish processing there.
>I don’t follow the analogy of improperly exposing a darkroom print and trying to fix it in the development process. In the darkroom case, the improper exposure of the print affects the image in irreversible ways
So does adjusting baked pixels, especially if you’re doing a pretty heavy alteration of the values, in 8 bits per color. Or trying to accomplish something that can’t be done on existing rendered pixels like highlight recovery or severe color cast removal. Shoot a JPEG+ Raw under the wrong illuminant. Try white balancing the Raw in LR or ACR, try producing the same correction on the JPEG in Photoshop. Not easy, sometimes not even possible.
I agree it would be nice of LR would show the histograms like ACR does. The difficulty is we don’t always know what encoding color space we’ll select at any one time (Open in Photoshop, export to the web, etc). And the Histogram in LR is in what’s called Melissa RGB, a space that’s not used for LR processing or an option for export. So its kind of a big fat lie.
Personally I’d like to be able to toggle the Histogram and select one of the three possible color spaces we can use in LR, just as we can in ACR. Its far more useful to the user who wishes to work with histograms and it would get LR and ACR parity closer. There are a few areas where there’s a disconnect between the two products that needs to be fixed. Case in point, point correction in curves. We have em in ACR but not LR. Or being able to toggle from 0-100% to 0-255. I must say that the percentage is OK with me but if ACR is going to use one scale, LR should use it too.
After using Lightroom for quite a while now, I don’t find that I am doing less work in Photoshop…. I find that I am doing *different* work in Photoshop. Because Lightroom has taken over the heavy lifting for getting a photograph into shape, tthis has freed Photoshop from those tasks, and allowed me to use it in more creative ways. I find myself using Photoshop more and more, not to fix problems, but to enhance photographs creatively, in ways that I never had the time (or energy) for before.
Your article is interesting and explains what I’ve observed using ACR CS3. I have the old Lightroom and don’t use it. The new one answers several shortcomings that kept me from working with Lightroom, maybe I’ll try it. However, godawful and buggy as Bridge is as a file manager, for someone who works with graphics as well as images, Lightroom is a very small closet format-wise and that alone will be a big hurdle for me to work with.
I bristle when insiders assume their universe of users somehow learn how to use new tools and workflows by osmosis. As poor as Adobe’s documentation is, we rely on experimentation, third party training, and testy articles like this one to find out what’s going on so we can work on self behavior modification. It’s hard for a “Photoshop Insider” to appreciate the perspectives of the outsiders who use the software, but do try.
I appreciate the insite of today’s entry. Lightroom indeed moves us forward as photographers.
On the subject of advancement, I’ve recently discovered the excellent TED talks at TED.com. Today I viewed what might be dubbed: Semantic Pixel Glue as embodied by Photosynth. The TED video is here.
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/blaise_aguera_y_arcas_demos_photosynth.html
I thought your readers would be interested.
Best pixels,
Thanks for the post Andrew. I was ‘raised’ on photoshop and recently made the concious decision to broaden my horizons and see the world of other software. Just recently I downloaded LR2 and have been mucking around and I’m glad I did. There are so many tools out there and although it’s frustrating that not everything you want is in one place, it’s good to have options.
Andrew,
Thanks for taking the time to make this blog entry. I also find myself going to Photoshop, less and less. I am especially glad that it is so easily available when needed through the new Lr 2 upgrade.
Don’t mean to put you on the spot. On several blogs that I frequent and on the Adobe forums, there are more than a few Lightroom users who are not to happy with the rendering time of Lr 2.0 and in particular the localized correction tools. They really like the new tools, but have issues with speed.
I have read concerns from both the Mac and Windows side.
Is this an issue with machines that do not have specific requirements from a CPU or RAM or Graphic capability ? Are we configuring the software incorrectly within the preferences ?
Can you give us some insight as to the minimum system requirements or preference settings to get the full advantage of a great piece of software.
Thanks again for taking the time to fill in for Scott.
>So does adjusting baked pixels, especially if you’re doing a pretty heavy alteration of the values, in 8 bits per color. Or trying to accomplish something that can’t be done on existing rendered pixels like highlight recovery or severe color cast removal. Shoot a JPEG+ Raw under the wrong illuminant. Try white balancing the Raw in LR or ACR, try producing the same correction on the JPEG in Photoshop. Not easy, sometimes not even possible.
Those are both examples where the camera’s conversion from raw to jpeg has made changes that are difficult to reverse. I certainly agree that correcting such files can go poorly. Bringing raw files in with a plausibly close white balance make sense. After all, I’ve got to choose some white balance to even operate on the file in Photoshop so it might as well be a reasonable one. With jpeg, the camera’s already made the choice.
Thanks for the fun post and interesting discussion!
>Don’t mean to put you on the spot. On several blogs that I frequent and on the Adobe forums, there are more than a few Lightroom users who are not to happy with the rendering time of Lr 2.0 and in particular the localized correction tools. They really like the new tools, but have issues with speed.
There appears to be a performance issue indeed with localized correction tools when using the auto mask function.
If you’ve got a Mac, you can probably get increased performance by launching in 64 bit mode (the default is 32 bit) but that only really buys you something if you have a good deal of Ram (over 4 gigs).
Somewhere on the Adobe LR web page should be minimum system requirements.
Why do I ned Lightroom. I only take a few pictures a month.
>If you’ve got a Mac, you can probably get increased performance by launching in 64 bit mode (the default is 32 bit) but that only really buys you something if you have a good deal of Ram (over 4 gigs).
I haven’t noticed a performance issue with the localized correction tools. I do have a mac pro with 7GB of ram and 64 bit mode. I did notice an overall improvement after switching the mode.
Of course the develop history gets filled with brush strokes now… have to remember to take a snapshot before brushing so it is easier to compare before and after.
Thanks for the nice guest blog:-)
I would like to think of Photoshop, as a tool. When contractors have a problem that’s what the tools are for, to fix a given problem. Not all photo scenarios are cut and dry or perfect. Photoshop gives you the tools to manipulate, fix those given situations.
Thanks for the tutorials and training to use my “tools” effectively!!!!!!!!!
Temple Hill
Scott,
I am not sure the best way to get ahold of you or your organization, My name is John Beyer and I am leading the photowalk in Cedar Rapids, IA. As most of the world knows, Cedar Rapids was recently hit with the worst flood devastation in the history books, well besides Noah. Anyways, I have heard that at times NAPP or your other businesses have helped out in different projects. Every year the church I attend (www.lifechurchnow.org) does what we call the Elijah Project (www.elijahproject.tv) where we go into the community and be HIS hands and feet, but with no strings attached, no advertisement of the church, not even an invite, just something we want to do for our community. This year we are looking at helping a family in Iowa City, IA, this family just recently moved to the area and they have now lost everything and didn’t even have enough time to get the proper insurance. I guess I am contacting you to see if in any way at all you could help out. I am not sure how, maybe you even know someone that could help. Please just pray and think about this possible opportunity to bless someone’s life.
Again, Thanks so much for being an inspiration and for all you do!
John Beyer
>Get it right in the capture (good exposure, focus, etc)
Then get it right in rendering (Raw processing)
THEN resort to Photoshop or use Photoshop for the local corrections and special effects you wish to achieve.
Andrew – this is exactly right!
Thanks for a superb blog. And many thanks to Scott for the Wednesday blogfest.
>It still doesn’t really help that you have two applications to do things. Realistically Adobe is going to have to bite the bullet so that the majority of photographers have just the one app.
Well, I don’t know too many photographers that only have one camera or one lens to put on the camera…the reason there are multiple tools for doing “similar” things is that the ability to design an “all in one” approach to software tools, like camera/lens tools is that trying to EVERYTHING with one thing will inevitably lead to bloat and feature creep.
Unlike Photoshop (which was NOT originally designed for photographers regardless of the “photo” in the title), Lightroom WAS designed for “photographers”. Not graphic artists, not web designers, not prepress…photographers. Considering Lightroom is only at version 2.0 (and Photoshop is now at 10.0.1), Photoshop already has some tools that Lightroom will never get. Lightroom will get those tools that is deemed required for photographers, particularly digital photographers on a version by version basis.
So, for many “photographers” Lightroom will be able to handle an 80/20 or 90/10 proportion of a particular photographer’s needs. If Lightroom can’t handle a particular task, then there’s always Photoshop as an external editor…but you aren’t limited to using only Photoshop ya know. Heck, any 3rd party (non-Adobe) app can be set to be an external editor–even Elements (which is about 70% of Photoshop for a paltry $99).
If LR ever gets softproofing, it will move me to the 90/10 category for me. In fact, in most ways, I prefer the LR print module to PS. However, when I really want a close color match, I need softproofing.
PS – whoops, pardon my grammatical lapse.
Well said, Andrew! Happy to see your Guest Blog here.
Photoshop remains in a class all its own. Lightroom’s digital photography workflow is stellar. Used together there’s nothing you can imagine that you can’t do.
I think for digital photographers, Lightroom really is the right tool for the majority of tasks, and you can make the image look however you want. I really like the controls in Lightroom. True, the tools (curve etc.) behave quite differently from Photoshop and take some getting used to.
From an editing standpoint, Lightroom closes the feedback loop in the process of visualizing photographs then making them. By evaluating results and learning from them, using Lightroom can make us better photographers.
I’ve been surprised to find that editing in Lightroom inspires me to make better pictures in the camera. Instead of thinking about layers and blending, I’m thinking about composition and tonal relationships… and then about capturing the most possible data with the best exposure I can manage.
And using Lightroom when shooting in the field is a joy! Fast results. Seeing work right away really helps drive the creative process.
To me, Lightroom has to many limitations to work effectively. First of all, there is no sufficient control over many tools (eg. Clarity or Highlight Recovery) – if I can’t customize parameters, I can’t get the effect I want. There is no real Curve control – no I can’t get what I want with those lame sliders and I don’t want to waste my time to find the way around if a few curve adjustments could make it immediately. Curve in ACR is much better, but I still need the control over each channel seperately, to recover data and set tonal gradations the way I want them to be.
My traditional workflow was to produce the most “flat”, unsharpened image from RAW, to get the widest range of information for PP (I mostly used DCRAW for it – BTW, I think, it still has better rendering output than ACR). Now with CS3 I change my workflow, because Adobe gave us an opportunity to open RAW in Photoshop as a Smart Object and fine tune RAW output in ACR anytime to fit current postprocessing needs. Using Smart Objects, Smart Filters and Adjustment Layers is incompareably faster and more effective way of working and with such possibilities I don’t see any chance for Lightroom to get even close.
>My traditional workflow was to produce the most “flatâ€, unsharpened image from RAW, to get the widest range of information for PP
I don’t know what makes you think that’s providing the widest range of info (its not).
>BTW, I think, it still has better rendering output than ACR). Now with CS3 I change my workflow, because Adobe gave us an opportunity to open RAW in Photoshop as a Smart Object and fine tune RAW output in ACR anytime to fit current postprocessing needs.
ACR and LR.’s develop module share the same processing engine and expect for tiny differences in UI, are identical.
I work with digital images 8 hours a day (I own a fine art printing studio) and Photoshop has long been my tool of choice. For the last year, I’ve been using Lightroom for all my RAW images before moving on to Photoshop. Does that lessen my reliance on Photoshop? Not always. I massage the best image out of LR and when it comes into PS, I have even more, and better, information to tweak. Localized control through masks and adjustment layers haven’t been replaced by LR’s more general controls, and LR2’s new selective editing tools, while useful, are still crude compared to those in PS.
I love working with both programs and feel the results I’m getting are definitely better than what I can achieve using either one separately.
>Localized control through masks and adjustment layers haven’t been replaced by LR’s more general controls, and LR2’s new selective editing tools, while useful, are still crude compared to those in PS.
No question the tools are super crude compared to Photoshop and I don’t think we’ll see major advances here. Since Photoshop is a pixel editor, we have infinite control. I think the newer selective color tools in LR2 are intended for broad strokes if you will. They help a great deal (lets burn in the corners, lets do large areas of correction). But I think for those of us that need really fine control, Photoshop will always be necessary. I think the idea is to minimize having to do large general area corrections on pixel based images which can be slower to accomplish. I’d hate to see the LR team even waste the time trying to compete with Photoshop here considering all the other areas we need functionality (see Scott’s list). I agree with your last sentence, the two products really complement each other.
Hi, got lightroom about three weeks ago. Also use CS3.
I decided that the images in lightroom were to soft for me; so instead of giving up and going back to curves in CS3, I decided to use the power of presets in lightroom.
Here is how I now get the CS3 look of curves into lightroom. using presets. I hope everyone can understand this. I describe the method on my blog. Jon
http://jonsmac-arts-optimizations.blogspot.com/2009/01/lightroom-workflow.html
I thought it a bit rude to delete my post? Just trying to add to the forum. Jon
We’ve pretty much switched to almost 100% LR work. Having to deliver hundreds of images week after week, it was the only way we could actually manage. It seems that in the wedding field there is an arms race with photographers promising more and more images – and the only way to compete was using LR.
Hi! I was surfing and found your blog post… nice! I love your blog.
Cheers! Sandra. R.
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