A Great Day For Sports Photography?
I guess it depends on how you look at it.
(NOTE: before you post a comment; please read Mike’s comments in the next post below, which explains what happened, and why FSU is absolutely not to blame).
You all know that on Monday we announced the winner for our “Shoot on The Sidelines with Scott & Mike,” contest, and Alex Walker, a really talented amateur sports photographer from Virginia won with an incredible shot of his son taken during a soccer (football) match.
You probably also know that a very vocal group of sports photographers were outraged at the fact that we did this contest in the first place. They didn’t feel an amateur, no matter how talented, had any place in “their world.” They were very bitter, angry, and made it very clear in online forums that having the winner on the sidelines was absolutely unacceptable.
But they didn’t stop there.
We just got word that these photographers were so upset that some of them contacted Florida State University directly, and told them they were making a mistake by letting an amateur “run amok” on the sidelines. This was dangerous. It’s not a good decision. This “amateur” has no business on the sidelines, and they should pull his sidelines pass!
Apparently, these angry sports photographers were very convincing. Florida State felt they had no choice but to rescind his pass Now, Alex will not get to shoot on the sidelines at the Florida State game.
Congratulations. You were able to steal Alex’s dream of shooting a big time game from the sidelines.
Yesterday I called Alex and told him the news. As you might imagine, he was very disappointed, but as good a photographer as Alex is, he’s even more of a gentleman and took the news like a pro.
He was already aware of the angry, hateful comments posted by some of these photographers, but I don’t think he ever thought it would come to this. Nevertheless, he was still grateful to have his photo chosen, and I’m sending him a bunch of cool goodies to, in some small way, take the sting out of losing out on such a wonderful opportunity, but obviously it won’t replace what was taken from him.
So, I guess these sports photographers felt it was really important for them to keep Alex off the sidelines, even though doing so:
- Wouldn’t put a dime in their pockets
- Wouldn’t in any way help their careers
- And wouldn’t impact their livelihood in any way
But they did manage to take a lifelong dream away from a very kind, talented dad, who just loves taking shots of his son.
My congratulations to this group of sports shooters on being able to convince Florida State University to change their mind. You should be very proud, and celebrate this great day for sports photography.
I also want to say that it IS FSU’s fault. I’m sure this has been said before, but the fact that they let these “pros” force them into pulling the sideline pass is laughable. These guys need FSU WAY more than FSU needs them. I’m sure there’s be 1000 more photogs waiting if these current ones were to boycott or refuse to shoot FSU games anymore.
and FSU obviously doesn’t have too much of an issue with Alex being on the field if they are offering to let him do it next year.
in the end, SportsShooter members = losers.
Rich, they were forced to do what they did to make sure I learned that in the future, there are procedures that need to be followed when deciding to use my asistant credentials for something like a contest. Just need to make sure they’re in the loop so they can be involved. It will never happen again from my end as I have learned the lesson.
Yes.. But just because you give someone the tools doesnt make it right when they show up and get in your way…. “Underbid” you and then screw the pooch.. and you have to pick up the pieces… And get hassled for charging the “Right” amount… and then get a clients saying “Well we already spent $ Amount and can only afford this $ amount to do it right now” No one is saying teaching secrets or teaching is wrong what we are saying is “Learn to Crawl before you walk” “Earn what you seek” “Respect those before you” “Nothing in life is for free” “Dont expect everyone to just give you everything and then be able to steal work from the very person you asked all the favors from” “Dont expect to find a BUTTON to fix everything in a instant” “Dont expect to buy a x y or z camera and how your a Pro Shooter” Many people paid big bucks and many years to learn their craft and did it with next to no help and with many years of blood sweat and tears and “Top Ramon” so when you get little “Dicky” “Scotty” showing up with a new shinny camera saying “Hey Teach me this and not even asking please or saying thank you” I agree those individuals can all kiss my *hole. And pay your dues like everyone else there is no shortcuts in this line.
They’re NOT in your way. He’s an amateur who won a wonderful opportunity to shoot a game. It’s fun, it’s exciting, it’s something we’d all like to do. No one is stealing from you or needs to “go earn your stripes” to do this. The economy is already taking care of dinosaurs like yourself. What a loser.
Wow, if this is the way sports photographer thinks today, what would happen to sports photography for the next 20 years?
You’re a loser.
Ok. So you are mad because no one ever gave you a chance like this one. Your work must suck if you’re freakin’ out about an amateur coming close to you. And by the way, it’s called competition. You better step up your game because we’re coming for your job & your money.
People like you project a bad impression of the industry to outsiders. You’re grumpy and need to get over yourself. You will get passed up unless you change your ways. (If you haven’t already been.)
The last time I looked we had a free market economy, based on competition. Sound like you are afraid of competing against anyone that hasn’t “paid their dues”.
You don’t know anything about the guy who won the competition. But I’d say he has a LOT more CLASS and I’d ask him to shoot my assignment LONG BEFORE I pick you. And I’d pay him more, not less.
You’re a petty, jealous, crass LOSER!
You need serious couch time! Seek out some professional help.
Wow Vizcara. You should be the one removed from the sidelines. What a loser you are. Are you so afraid of losing your job to an amateur? You must take very bad pictures with a very expensive kit.
Applauzes to yourself.
You sir are an a**hole and give ALL photographers a bad name.
You’re a sad little man, Vizcara. If you’re angry about being underbid and have to take work that’s beneath your (obviously inflated) estimation of your value, then turn down the work! The flipside is that if your stuff is twice as good as the “amateur” off the street, then you will be paid three times what the amateur can command over the long haul. As others note, markets have funny ways of sorting these things out. So instead of blaming “amateurs,” blogs, contests, and inexpensive cameras, maybe you should take a close look at your last card full of shots and ask yourself if you’re still “earning what you seek.” A piece of grass on a sideline somewhere isn’t a Supreme Court gig, my friend. It isn’t a lifetime appointment. You have to earn it on every assignment. And if you don’t, some “amateur” like Alex will both underbid you AND outperform you (which happens to be how I got my current gig, BTW). Now, whose fault would that be, Vizcara?
Man, I only know that these SS remarks means one thing:
These pro-SS shooters are a bunch of insecure lot.
It amazes me that they feel so much threatened about their “position”. Does that simply means, after so much hard work, time, effort and even credentials, all comes to this.
I feel sorry for them.
But that said, we should feel good here. They really felt threatened by a bunch of “amatures” and serious people who are passionately interested to do photography. For this, it means they are photographers, not pros. Guess everyone still has a long way to learn to be more gracious. And it seems to be getting lesser everyday. So sad
It’s too bad that you feel this way instead of accepting it for what it is – honest competition. I’m not going to presume to know what you’re thinking, but if I were in your position I would welcome this opportunity to really show FSU what I could do and why they pay me the big bucks instead of trading down to the contest winner. Competition is good for everybody – it forces the good to get better and the bad to become good. The unfortunate fact is that your protections left you the moment Nikon and Canon introduced their first DSLRs. Now photography is bigger than ever and people who didn’t want to invest in rolls and rolls of film can shoot on memory cards, learn, and repeat quickly and cheaply. It’s a brave new world out there and if I was to give you just a little advice, it’s that these contests and opportunities for amateur photographers will only increase. Hone your craft now so that your clients won’t want to accept a lower bid because you give them something that nobody else does.
Hi Vic, nice to know how insecure you are bout losing out your market to newer photographers…the fact of the matter is that unless you re invent yourself to match up with the upcoming skills, technology and talent of the younger generation, you will always stand to lose what you earned over the years, no matter how big a photographer you are. There are hundreds of people out there like Alex who would love a chance to shoot from the sidelines and not necessarily make a career out of it. It only goes to show how narrow minded you are if you consider such amateurs as competition and riffraff. No one’s asking you to lecture and teach, but passing a few tips down to people who might eventually take your place one day will only help you give back what you got from the art. Cameras will always get cheaper and the competition will only get bigger, but what matters is how you deal with it…and from the looks of it you obviously cant
I’m just wondering what Vizcara really does for a living, becasue it sure isn’t photojournalism. Photojournalism requires a photographer to not only shoot good images, but to write concise captions IN ENGLISH. It’s no wonder he fears competition from outside his little world (whatever that may really be) – people who can organize a thought and convey it with proper grammar and punctuation.
Mate, you have some serious personal issues to work out…
some of which may be the fear of some with less experience producing better images than you – not just cheaper ones perhaps?
It would appear this gentleman would like to be the last “PRO” shooter on the planet. How are amateur photographers supposed to take the next step when they are denied learning opportunities like this? Based on vizcara’s comments the winner would have been denied his prize if was an amateur shooting his son or a student with serious aspirations. Yor arrogance is shadowed only by your mouth. PS. The ‘P’ on your camera does not stand for profesional.
Wow you must really suck bad if your this threatened by an amateur… I’m not saying were not face alot of problems through out the Photo Industry but really this is just shooting yourself in the foot.
If your pictures are good enough then you’ve nothing to worry about. Of course, I think the real reason these “pros” were so put out was the dent to their ego. After all, “professional” photography is not really a profession at all, it is a trade and he who sells his skills stands and falls by the quality of his work. It is a little bit too much for these guys to take to think that a dad who takes photographs as a hobby, a release from his working week, might, just might, be able to produce work of a standard approaching their own.
Wow. I am appalled at the comments from some of the sports shooter community.
If you have a credential, it’s at the invitation of the issuer. You have no right to be there yet your comments would seem to indicate otherwise.
Way to go guys. Way to f up something that likely had absolutely no impact on 99.999% of you and way to represent your chosen profession to the public.
As a member of sportshooter let me say how sad it is that a few spoiled something like this.
As a member of sportsshooter who supports Scott and Mike’s idea I’m sorry that a minority of “pro” photographers made such a stink out of nothing.
I for one welcome anyone who has the passion to shoot sports. Yes it can be long hours for us in the media and hard work cause we have a lot to hand but its still the best job in the world and I’m honored that there are so many out there that would want to be in my shoes.
To the winner of the contest I feel bad. You deserve to be there as much as the next guy.
And finally Thanks Scott for all that you do. I have been a pro for 10 years but I still read your books and check your site. Just because I’m a pro doesn’t mean I know it all and the day I stop learning is the day I become the bitter ugliness that ruined a good chance for Alex.
This is the type of “sportsmanship” I would have expected from professional photographers. As one myself (in a very different arena), I welcome newcomers, people to pass my knowledge off to – and to learn from them. It’s too bad that the other professionals didn’t buck up and do the right thing.
But thanks, Michael, for speaking up. Bravo!
Let’s not make any mistakes here, there is nothing..I repeat NOTHING professional about any of those who posted negatively on this subject at SS. In fact, I’ve never seen such a large group of un-professional people in my whole life. They act more like scared rabbits than mentoring professionals.
Way to go Michael. That’s the spirit !
Spoken like a TRUE professional photographer!
Way to go Michael, I am not a pro. just a 35 yr. enthusiast of the hobby. Most of the pro photogs I have run into over time have been positive. I guess a few whiners got what they wanted, FSU should have told them to go pack sand they own the sidelines not the Pro Shooters……
I think there is a lot of elitism, snobbery and lack of understanding over at sportshooter.com.
First of all the sidelines don’t belong to photographers. They belong to the school, and it’s up to them who shoots and who doesn’t and who belongs and who doesn’t. I was a college sports writer for almost 15 years, and believe me, I would scratch my head at times at the people who would get into the press box. But I never complained because it wasn’t my press box and therefore not my decision. Same thing with the sidelines.
Second, there is no hierarchy to sideline passes. In other words, just because you have a 600mm lens and work for AP or Sports Illustrated doesn’t mean that you have any more right to a piece of turf than Joe the photographer at the Podunk Herald who just has a Nikon D40 and a kit lens. First come, first served. Of course, stay out of people’s way and be civil, but these guys acting like because they are a full-time shooter that they have a “right” to the best angles and the best spots is just ridiculous.
Third, who Mike brings as his assistant what they do for him on the sidelines is HIS business. As long as they obey the rules, what does it matter? I can appreciate him taking the blame for this and I really respect his stand-up attitude, but the truth of the matter is that Florida State is setting a horrible precedent by bowing to pressure and revoking the credential. So now the shooters can decide who gets to shoot? Maybe next time it’s a guy who isn’t on a paid assignment who gets complained about. Or someone in a wheelchair. Or the guy with the Pentax instead of a Nikon or Canon. Or the guy at a competing website. The slippery slope argument is used in a lot of instances when it shouldn’t, but I think this is one where it applies. Florida State has trusted Mike for a long time with who he gives his second pass to, and now all of the sudden it’s a problem. I don’t agree with all of Hal’s post, but I do agree that it’s highly unlikely that all of the people complaining have never given a “assistant’s pass” to someone who wasn’t really an assistant.
It’s unfortunate that this happened. I feel for Mike, Scott and Alex. But it’s a reminder that the rules are changing all over the media landscape. Newspapers are changing because of the internet. Record companies have had to adapt to MP3s. And photography is entering a whole new world because of digital. Some people are willing to adapt. Some aren’t.
Well said, but I have one more thing to add: the fact that supposedly professional photographers feel threatened by an amateur is just sad. Its just like an NFL player being threatened by an up and coming college athlete, if they feel that the new guy may be better than they are, they need to up their game.
Tony, nobody at FSU caved. They simply were forced to teach me that when I use my assitant credentials for something like a contest, clear it with them beforehand so if anything is said can be dealt with by them having understood exactly what I was doing. Lesson learned. Much appreciate your kind words, though.
I agree that they needed to make you aware of their policy on contests. But, I just think they could have handled it better. Like discussing it with you privately and then letting the contest continue. It appears they had no problem with the contest per se, just the lack of communication between you and them. Why do something that would cause such a ruckus unnecessarily? It’s obvious that your intentions were pure and that you are a stand up guy. No good deed goes unpunished, as it has been said. I feel very bad for you, Scott and Alex. None of you deserved all this craziness.
I’ll tell you what I would like to see happen, is one of the stand up, and honorable pro sports shooters who is looking for an assistant during that game to give Alex a call and offer him the assignment with them… be their assistant for the game. Just a thought to end all this mess…. an olive branch if you will. Thanks!!
It’s obvious, they are afraid of a little competition from an amature. Makes me question their skill.
I have been following this since this inception of this contest. It surprises and disappoints me that it ended this way. I sense in Mike O.’s comments a need to try and “protect” FSU from criticism and controversy. And I understand that as I’m sure he doesn’t want to place his credentials/reputation on the line.
What I find most disappointing is how politics surface in EVERYTHING. I’m quite certain that if the contest winner had been a friend of a board member or had know the “right” person, FSU’s response would have been more like “we place absolute trust in Mike to choose his assistants…” When it comes down to it, it’s one guy one the sidelines helping a credentialed person take pictures. I’m sure that FSU can probably fall back on some policy and procedure violation but it seems pathetic that it’s come to the point where so few can spoil it for so many. I know Mike doesn’t want criticism of FSU but come on. It’s just some pictures of some kids playing a game. Nothing more.
I breached their trust in me, steveb. The appearance of impropriety can reflect poorly on the school and without knowing about what I was doing, FSU couldn’t respond when they were contacted. For all my SID knew, I had sold the credential to Scott. She was forced to teach me a lesson and I am left looking like a goof in the eyes of many.
But, Mike, despite you willingness to fall on your sword, FSU isn’t punishing you, it’s punishing the contest winner. No common sense is being shown by FSU.
I agree. I know you’re willing to fall on the sword Mike, likely to protect your position at FSU and I don’t blame or criticize you for that. It just seems like the SID could have simply picked up the phone and said, “what’s going on?”, you could have explained what this was about, apologized privately, SID says “run this by me next time” and then issued a statement supporting you. End of story. Isn’t that what relationships and trust is all about? Unless you’ve habitually violated policies in the past, I think FSU took the easy way out. To say that they could have assumed maybe you “sold the pass to Scott Kelby for all they knew” seems to cast a “quick to over-react” light on the SID. In any event, I appreciate your blog, stories and tips. Hopefully, you and FSU will make it right eventually with the contest winner!
Again, this is where the “5 P’s” come in to play.
Proper
Planning
Prevents
Piss-poor
Performance
Unfortunately, J.T., in this case you forgot the most important P of all -
Protect my turf
As in what the vocal minority of the SportsShooter crowd is trying to do.
After reading most of the posts and comments on this subject (including the original post on sportsshooter.com) I do believe this is a sad indictment of the views held by some. Keep in mind that the derogatory remarks were posted by only a few of the members.
Let’s be careful to not throw all sportsshooter.com members into the same bucket. It would be the same type of unfair judgement that created this unfortunate situation to begin with.
Fortunately, some folks over at SS have attempted to take their brethren to task:
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=33918
Interesting, insightful, entertaining, thought-provoking, disturbing, sad…..
There are some folks who are just unpleasant to be around and/or associated with, no matter how hard you try. So, you just move on. Life’s too short as it is…..
Ashton Kutcher just tweeted:
Bestphotogever I’ll just go ahead and say what most of you are too polite to: some of the guys at SportsShooter.com are pussies. #photog
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think Ashton said exactly how we feel. Sportshooter.com guys are peeing on the turf like old dogs, trying to say you can’t come here.
Nah. It’s more like the grumpy old man that lived down the street when you were a kid. You know, the one who came outside and grabbed the ball that landed in his yard and stuck it in the window so you could see it but never get it back.
Ashton Cusher is an actor who is paid rather well by Nikon to sell their stuff. Does this suddenly make him an experienced photographer who speaks for the majority?
The pot calling the kettle black.
Why doesn’t someone tell Ashton to send “Alex” a Nikon D3. Somehow that would take the sting out of all this I bet.
Scott, this is so sad to see. Over the years you, Scott Kelby, have been so kind to amateurs, enthusiast, hobbyists but most of all “professionals” trying to learn and improve their crafts in Photoshop, Design, Photography and now well . . . all things digital. Your books, NAPP membership, videos, seminars, and training have been a great value for all the digital arts. You help people “amateurs,” fledging professionals and established professionals (even your competitors in book publishing, videos and seminars, improve. By sharing your talents, you have made us all better digital artists and done so much for the “professions” . . . and all of them that make up the digital world.
It is truly pathetic to see a number of so called professionals at sportshooter.com spoil the spirit of working together to improve our own talents, the collective talents of the industry and to the fun that goes with creating fantastic images.
The Grinch tried to steal Christmas, I sincerely hope these clods don’t spoil the sense of community, sharing and working together that you have created for the digital world. Peace.
Kudos to Mike O. for commenting on a lot of the above questions.
-Bob
(Boston)
Scott ….I think you should delete this post for Mike so he doesn’t have to keep telling people not to be mad at FSU. He was just trying give something back & got a little ahead of himself & didn’t notify the right people. Other words it sounds like it would of been ok.
Please end this
Sportshooter.com seems like a secret club for grumpy old men. You have to pay $25 a year to participate in that forum. Wow!
“GET OFF MY LAWN!! PUNK!!!”
As a professional shooter for 35 something years I thought that once a person became a pro the juvenile activities were left behind. I try constantly to help and aid those who would like to get into this crazy world that I live and exist in. It certainly is not easy to stay a pro in this day and time. The guys at Sportshooter.com need to look back and realize that there were probably a few old pros that gave them a chance and a hand up back in the days. What goes around comes around. They really need to get a life and some new personalities.
…All I want to say is that I just went over to the sports shooters forums, and the forum software used over there looks like it’s from the ’80s. Time for an update, no?
That is all.
Here in Australia I have found that many ‘professional’ photographers are wankers. I was so happy to find that the team at Kelby Training are willing to help us amatuers by sharing there skills and knowledge.
I guess that America also has these ‘wanker’ photographers, those so called pros who complained need to pull there head out of there arse and step down of their self proclaimed pedestal. Dont forget guys you were amatuers once and someone had to give you a chance to step up. Maybe this guy didnt want to go pro, he would have been under the guide of Scott himself and I am sure he is not the sort of man to just let him go off and do stupid stuff.
I am so dissapointed that these stuck up so called professional sports photographers and such a low image of their own abilities or that they are scared this poor guy is going to somehow steal their limelite.
Grow up guys.
Phew!, sorry Scott I just needed to get that out. Keep up the good work and I hope to come to see one of your classes soon.
Interesting, how too little (information) can go a long way. As I read this story about giving and taking away, I thought “hey I just read this somewhere”. Right, between classes and assignments I’ve been re-reading Harry Potter. We know who gets to play Hogwarts the school, Alex as Harry and take a bow Sportshooters you get to play the part of Lord Voldemort.
We all see where this went wrong, Sportshooters, now ’s the time to step up to the plate.
You may say that FSU is in no way responsible for what happened. Well . . . I see it slightly different. While FSU is not responsible for the actions of the complaining photographers they are responsible for their decision in the matter. Didn’t they agree ahead of time and make a commitment to provide a pass for the winner? When the “pro” photographers started complaining FSU made a choice to cave in. I was unaware that FSU needed the permission of the other photographers with passes to grant a pass to another photographer. FSU could have chosen to honor their commitment. Where will FSU’s capitulation the these loud, angry “pro” photographers end?
Here’s how this can be fixed; Scott, sometimes you get invited to NFL games to shoot on the sidelines. Why not take this winner with you next time you shoot an NFL game or any other professional game? This way he gets a higher level of experience than at some forgettable college game because one, he’ll get to learn from you personally (some of us would kill for the chance to shoot one on one with you!) and two because he’d get to experience what it’s really like to be out there in the middle of all the action and excitement.
Way to go! Scott, love how you shake up things. Maybe not everyone can be on the sidelines to shoot the shot but the ‘professionals’ should welcome the ‘amateurs’ if only to improve their product. BTW, was that a Canon lens? And did it work afterward?
To that “vocal group of sports photographers” whose voices managed to squelch Alex’s experience of capturing great images at a top-level sports event… let me just say this… What on earth are you afraid of??? That someone else may capture a great photo that just perhaps has publication merit? True professionals don’t whine… and they certainly don’t fee threatened to have a contest winner like Alex shoot along side them. True professionals would embrace the opportunity for Alex.
Grow up guys (and ladies)… and while you’re at it… take a moment to read Seth Godin’s latest book, Tribes… but then again, maybe you shouldn’t… ’cause you won’t like reading the fact that nobody is entitled to stay in business purely out of a sense of entitlement. You’ve gotta be good… no make that GREAT at what you do to keep doing it… and somehow, when you get a little too protective of your turf, that sounds to me that you just may not REALLY be as good as you think you are. All this dues-paying talk is just one big facade that does a poor job of hiding the fact that some pro sports photographers are overly protective of their turf and feel “entitled” to do what they do simply ’cause they’ve paid some dues along the way. It’s that simple… and it’s that sad.
I think we’ve all just experienced a new meaning for the word GRUMPY!!!
i am an SID at a major university in the midwest and have the power to grant/deny credentials at our football games. i can not tell you how disappointed we would be with our staff photographer if he held a contest like this without even mentioning it to us. mike is unbelievably in the wrong here. with that being said, we would never have done what FSU has done. it’s a slap in the face to mike, regardless of anyone’s opinion about whether or not this alex fella should or should not be there.
dub, having read Mike’s many attempts to throw himself on the grenade (admirably so), I’m pretty sure he understands that this should have been cleared beforehand. Nonetheless, if the Legends-In-Their-Own-Minds at SportsShooter hadn’t created a firestorm, Mike’s use of his assistant credentials would never have been noticed and all would have been well.
My only comment is, all those “pros” were once amateurs. Someone gave them a chance. They should reciprocate.
The only chances I got were the ones I earned and not by winning a contest but by submitting my portfolio for review by an editor, many editors.
So you should therefore punish Alex because the technology of networking has evolved since you were coming up in the business? Because Alex EARNED this gig by sending his frames in via e-mail instead of humping a crusty book up three flights of stairs to see an editor? Seriously? THAT’S your argument?
Kevin, I didn’t punish Alex, I don’t know Alex. But most of those posting here have decided to punish ALL members of Sports Shooter simply because a few voiced their opposition to this.
I’m simply commenting on a statement. Is it the fault of ALL members of Sports Shooter that a few were vocally opposed to this? Is is the fault of ALL members of Sports Shooter that Mike didn’t get the appropriate clearance from FSU?
I honestly feel bad that things played out the way they did. I’m sure that had the same thing happened to me as an amateur I would have been pretty upset.
With all due respect, William, you’re changing the subject. I never asked you to answer for every vitriolic poster over at Sports Shooters, nor did I make a sweeping generalization about ALL SS members. My beef was with YOUR post, which I’ll return to in a moment.
FTR, no, it is not the fault of ALL Sports Shooters members that this turned into a fiasco. I read the threads on SS and am aware that some took Scott and Mike’s efforts here in the spirit intended. But whether Mike had proper clearance from FSU or not, it’s undeniable that this thing died because a number of insecure saboteurs went WAY out of their way to complain to FSU’s SID.
In a broader sense, however, neither you nor anyone at SS should be surprised that amateurs and part-timers take offense at the disdainful, dismissive tone you displayed in your prior post. While I’m glad to hear you’re not revelling in the fact that Alex got shivved, that doesn’t square with what you implied about Alex’s qualifications in your OP.
Despite the differences in technology, Alex earned his day on that sideline the same way your first one — he peddled his best frames in whatever way he could until someone he caught someone’s eye and got a chance to step up. I see nothing to belittle in that.
I “peddled” my frames as I would my resume, in an effort to secure a job. I didn’t enter a contest to win a prize. We obviously don’t agree on that distinction but that’s okay. To each his own. However, there is no disputing the fact that the attacks here are at a much more personal level, especially those who’ve decided that it’s funny to send profanity-laced emails to several Sports Shooter members.
Sir, every professional photographer was given a chance. When you shot your first paying gig, someone took a chance on you. I fail to see any difference between your or the contest winner who submitted the best photo, IMO and deserved the chance. Only the circumstances are different.
Geez, free competition doesnt mean something to you? Why you are so afraid of? And even if you earned your chances, it doesnt mean you got it forever and noone else cannot replace you.
And what is the difference between earning chances (I assume by making great shots by you) and winning the contest (by making great shot).
I see your point now, William. The “victims” are the poor guys at SportsShooters who intervened and/or referred to everyone NOT in their shoes as “Uncle Bob with a Canon Rebel.” I hear ya.
Obviously, I shouldn’t be expected to defend idiot e-mailers any more than I’ve asked you to defend the more obnoxious elements at SportsShooters. IMO, these poison e-mailers should shut up, grow up and work on their books. Then they should underbid (yeah, I said it!) and outperform the guys who think it’s fair to kick the ladder from beneath those working their way up. Darwin and free markets can sort out the rest. That’s meritocracy, not to be confused with the seniority worship that prevails on the SS boards. Sound fair to you?
You can view small portfolios of those on sportsshooter.com by clicking on their user profiles on the site. It’s very telling as to why some are concerned. The ones making the biggest stink about this contest, honestly have very mediocre images listed on their profiles. Most of the ones crying the loudest didn’t even have college or pro level sports photo’s in their portfolios. One i saw who was beyond angry at this contest had only high school sports, another only had horrible looking HDR stuff, and the guy who made the biggest fuss of them all, mostly just had small hick town parade images.
On the flip side, the guy who shortsshooter.com member who was doing his best to calm these guys down, and saying how this contest was a good idea, was a REAL pro photographer who had everything from the NFL,MLB and even Iraq War photo’s in his portfolio…
Basically, after viewing the cry babies portfolios, it seems the only ones on that site making this into a big ordeal, aren’t even pro’s at all. But instead are semi pro’s scared to death of someone younger, and fresher coming in and showing them just how poorly they shoot.
After reading through both posts and all the comments (and yes, I read all the comments), it sounds like the situation was just a lack of communication and a little over-zealousness. Honestly, I can see the perspective of Mike, FSU, as well as that of the Sports Shooters group:
Mike – just wanted to give a really cool prize to an aspiring and talented photograher
FSU – Under pressure from an organized body of professionals, must capitulate to their unified front
Sports Shooters – when suggested that an amateur is about to enter their world, became concerned over not only over work space (assuming that the loss of a position that would have gone to another pro), but also to the safety of the environment (not realizing that the prize winner would have been carefully instructed to stick close by his assigned leader – Mike)
*****
I give prizes out on my own blog regularly and it’s a thrill to see people get excited at winning something – it’s fun seeing the excitement and to know you had an impact on challenging and inspiring others. Who wouldn’t want the thrill of that?
The Colorado Dept of Education (whom I work for) must adhere to standards across the board, and if it comes to light that exceptions were made that did not get necessary exception approval, that exception must be rescinded just to be fair to others who went through the process correctly.
I am an IT Professional (at CDE) and the thought of giving an untrained amateur the keys to the server room would make me kinda freaked out…
So, you see… it’s easy to get caught up in the trees, and sometimes, it helps to remember they are all part of a forest. When you look at the big picture here, it is telling here that we all learned something about the perspectives of others, and to take the thoughts of others into consideration from time to time!
So, in the long run, when you really think about it, Scott has again hit a home run in helping to broaden the horizons and expanded the minds of countless photographers. Thanks Scott – even when you don’t realize it, you’re teaching us all every day!
What a sorry bunch of cry babies! jeez
I just wandered around the sport shooters forums where this issue is being discussed and wow! all I can say is wow! I love photography, and thought I’d love to shoot sporting events someday, but after seeing what these people are like, I have absolutely no interest at all anymore. Alex, be glad you didn’t get to go. What a poisoned, festering oozing cesspool that all sounds to be! Wouldn’t go within 100 yds of any of those people.
Shooting landscapes and wildlife up in the mountains where I live suddenly seems 1000 times better than it ever has! At least I know I won’t run into any of these slobbering cry babies – since they’ll be fighting over their “spot” on the sidelines – ha ha – hilarious.
The whole “I’m better than you, and you could never dream of doing my job” attitude is mind-boggling to me. Most of these “pros” come across as being completely insecure. If they are really as good as they want us all to think they are, then they should have nothing to worry about. The fact that they feel threatened reveals more about them than anything.
The other big argument I saw over in the SS forums has to do with inappropriate use of an “assistant” credential. That I know nothing about, so maybe they have a point there. But the fact that they turned it into such a hate-filled attack really says a lot about how low those “pro” sport shooters really are as a group of people. Like I said before, if shooting sports means having to deal with those types of people, I’ll take the big PASS!
Thanks for everything you do Scott (and everyone at and related to NAPP).
We love ya!
Nice post, Mike. I couldn’t agree with you more. I just wasted an hour of my life browsing the SS forums. The majority of the posters are a bunch of crabby, whiny, insecure individuals. I can tell that there are intelligent professionals there as well, but they get shouted down if they disagree with the group. I have to admit, some of it is funny as well, but mostly just sad. Reminds me of a petty little war like Fox News against MSNBC; what a waste of time.
I think I’ll stick to my landscapes, waterfalls, and cityscapes. I’ll limit my sports shooting to behind the fence and in the stands. It is much more rewarding when I get a great shot without the “priviledged” access.
Ah Geeze! i’d really had to see the Zack Arias blog get knocked off the top of the charts because of such pettiness.
Every industry and niche market has to evolve. Photography is in a madly-paced evolution for the better. A pro shooter has to roll with the changes and realize that the amateurs are hot on the trail. That’s what makes it all so exciting these days.
Sideline safety is the big concern, but that can be addressed appropriately before the game starts.
Perhaps UF would offer up some sideline turf if the right person was provided the story of this unfortunate event.
Go Gators!
Wow. I’m a professional programmer and I haven’t seen religious warfare break out like this since we all went nuts about Windows versus Mac versus Open Source versus some other thing. (Actually we do it every month, so my shell is completely battle hardened.)
I feel sorry for the three major participants, given their intent. I would love to have won but I didn’t have worthy entries. Maybe next year. And, Alex, I *really* feel for you. Damn that would have been a great afternoon!
And I totally support Action Cushion’s efforts. More people buying cameras and taking pictures only leads to more people understanding that taking good photographs is hard. I believe this is good for people who are serious about taking photographs. Ashton, keep on keeping on…
In the land of free and home of the brave you should unit to condemn the photographers who managed to stop this fellow. Do not buy one single picture from any of them. No more. Never.
I hope this story ends with the winner at the sideline of Super Bowl in january!
What is going on with the world? Why deliberately set out to ruin something fun for someone who really, would have no effect on your life at the end of the game? Geeze….who knows….he might have actually had a POSITIVE influence on you, just by sharing his enthusiasm. Doesn’t it make you feel good to see someone enjoying themselves? I love that buzz.
Alex didn’t want your job. Alex wanted to experience the thrill of it for one time, but hey, you couldn’t just let him have that could you?
I am so glad my children won’t grow up to be like you, Vizcara. But it upsets me that they will probably have to deal with those of the same ilk.
I’m sorry you can’t just let someone enjoy a moment.
So I speak up and try to support you guys as a Sportshooter member, but I relay a moronic email by a supporter of this board and it is deleted? You guys are awesome…this is the email and it is uncalled for by folks on either side of this. And I supported the concept of this…
——————–
another loooser. scott earns more money in one month then
you do in 10 years. Go shoots a few horses and earn
$24,000 a year. Any idiot graduating from a good school like
USC with a D3 can replace you. Technology isa bout to make
you obsolete.
another looooser afraid of someone on the sidelines. I have
taken my D3 and my 600 to many D1 games. all because I
have the money and connections. Stick that in your pipe and
smoke it looser. We all suport Scott and his crew. you
looosers are go bye bye———
How many people here thing anyone should receive an email like this? Or will this post get deleted like the last one?
Hey Scott:
I found one of those posts and deleted it because I think it contained an email address. Bogus or not, you’re totally cool with sharing your own email address – but we’re really making it a point not to get into the pattern of letting people ‘out’ other people’s email.
That, and also reading the email.. it just sounds like a troll trying to keep the flamewar going.. I doubt this person has a position one way or another and is just trying to get people’s goat.
RC
Scott, stop playing the martyr. You come here purportedly in defense of the contest and then go back to SportsShooter to carry their water. And who gives three rats’ behinds whether you like Alex’s photo or whether it was a gme shot or a practice shot (which seems to be your biggest beef with Alex getting his shot per your posts on SS). I didn’t know you were the one and only human capable of judging a photo contest, and if someone picked a different photo, they’re wrong.
P.S. – judging by your portfolio at SS, you could learn how to shoot a good soccer pix from Alex.
I’ll tell you what I would like to see happen, is one of the stand up, and honorable pro sports shooters who is looking for an assistant during that game to give Alex a call and offer him the assignment with them… be their assistant for the game. Just a thought to end all this mess…. an olive branch if you will. Thanks!!
Why is everybody so grumpy? Be nice! Life’s too short to be grumpy… And don’t forget what the Photoshop-guys said on their 200 episode: “Everyday is love-day.” This is probable the only time they said something useful…
Woops! I thought I was placing this comment with the ‘everything is all right-comment on friday’ Just ignore me..
Kusher, paid or not, is entitled to an opinion and a voice in the forum..
I got to shoot Div 1 football while in college… Didn’t make me grumpy or territorial. Fact is, today, that a superior skill set is presumed, but in no way any kind of guarantee of success or even notice. Professionals have to spend about 85% of their time doing pro-active self promotion just to hold their seat at the table… The alleged actions at FSU by a few clods amount to a pissing contest with a mirror.. If the person in question really wants a day along the sidelines it will come…
Spellcheck, people, spellcheck.
There are pro sport shooting professionals doing the same thing and charging real money, see
http://www.washingtonphotoworkshops.com/
I do not see SS guys complaining about that…….
It goes way beyond that, Howard. SPORTS SHOOTER HAS AN ACADEMY WHERE THEIR “STUDENTS” ARE TAKEN TO LIVE SPORTING EVENTS TO SHOOT ON THE SIDELINES, FLOOR, ETC. Next, there has been several mea culpas on SportsShooter where they readily admit that one of them AUCTIONS OFF A CREDENTIAL SO SOMEBODY CAN GET ON THE SIDELINES WITH THE GUY AUCTIONING OFF THE CRED. Last but not least, Canon sponsors a shoot on the sidelines contest which gives the winner sidelinecredentials for NFL games.
Now, where is the venomous outcry by SS members as to all of this, which seemingly would be decried by the sanctimonious lot at SS? Why aren’t they contacting Canon, the NFL, the auctioning member of SS, and their own people who run SS? Because they’re hypocrites. Because they’re petty. Because as long as it is one of them involved (or a camera company that services them), they don’t mind.
Sauce for the goose, SportsShooter. Sauce for the goose.
Maybe if these weiners/whiners had a “lay person” assisting them, they might actually shoot photos as good as the ones Mike Olivella creates and get theirs published in places people actually see.
Wow, I have to say I am absolutely amazed at the quality of the comments posted here!
I guess some people never heard the old saw “keep your mouth closed & be thought of as a fool, rather than open it & remove all doubt.”
I am friends with several members of SS & am a former member there myself. In addition, I am a 4th year student and athletic photographer at a DIII school in Maine. As such, I have more freedom to pick shooting spots than I would with DI.
Scott, you really know your stuff when it comes to PS & you definitely have the eye when it comes to shooting. I have bought several of your books & check out your articles in Photoshop User at borders when I can, since the cost of a NAPP membership is out of this student’s reach. However, you’ve lost alot of the respect I had for you when you pinned all this on the photographers alone when it is plainly Mike’s fault and no one else’s for breaking the conditions in which the credential was issued. I have read many of the comments here & in the posts at the SS forum, and care to guess which contains by far the most juvenile and eye-rolling comments I have ever read?
Fact is, if you had included the info that the winning photog would be using an ALREADY ISSUED credential & therefore not simply being a rich fella with connections pushing out a hardworking photog from doing his job, the guys at SS wouldn’t care two cents about it.
Considering the quality of your readership here, I probably won’t be visiting this blog again, as if I wanted to immerse myself in the levels of teenage angst, hatred & jealousy, I might as well start hanging around the KKK boards.
Your comment is laced with ignorance, Jason. Mike didn’t violate the terms of the credential. There is nothing on the credential which precludes him from selecting his assistant any way he chooses. He’s been doing it for years. The onlky hangup is that he didn’t tell his SID about the contest beforehand, so when some of your hypocritical friends at SS deluged her with e-mails, she had no idea what they were taliking about. People in responsible positions don’t like surprises, and when she was caught with her pants down, she did not appreciate it so she went to Mike and told him never to put her in that position again. To reinforce that, she apparently told him he had to pull the plug THIS TIME, but would gladly work with Scott and Mike in the future to do exactly what was being done here.
Now, who caused the contest to be called off? your boys. The same ones who have no problem with the SS Academy where you take newbies onto the field to shoot. The same ones who keep their mouths zipped shut when Canon takes contest winners on the sidelines. The same ones who wouldn’t dare call one of their own on the same caroet they did Mike and Scott when he auctions off his assistant credentials.
Go back to SS. It’s obvious you prefer to immerse yourself in hypocrisy and with holier than thou people.
So your thesis..here, is that Scott Kelby is accountable for all the posts that are not redacted because they don’t meet some illusory standard set by you for reasonableness, and accuracy? No matter how puerile and patently ridiculous.. such as, for example, yours?
wow! I’m lost for words for a profession in sports photography…. I’m a youth and high school sports shooter and would love to have had the chance to be on the sidelines of a college or ever pro game. Now reading the post about the mistake by Mike O and not getting the right permissions, well sad and poor planning.. Sorry Mike O.. But would be ok if it didn’t happen. All good things never happen anyway!! Now, for the so called “Pro’s” you need to look in the mirror and ask yourself where did i start before i was here?? What qualifies as a “Pro” in sports photography.. Ohh i bet it means you own your gear, not rent or use the paper,magazine online publications money to get it:-)
This reaction is typical of professional sports photogs. As a group, they are some of the rudest and least helpful people with cameras in their hands on the planet. There are exceptions, of course, but the few times I’ve ventured onto a sideline with a “pro”, I’ve been treated with the same arrogance displayed here and on SS. No doubt these pros are talented photogs, but likewise, no doubt these folks think a 400mm 2.8 gives them license to run roughshod over anyone they see. Sad but true!
People are funny. Some folk just get worked up about stuff, if it wasnt this it would be something else. This will pass.
As a Professional Photographer I just want to say that these people fomr SS really don’t repersent the industry. All Pro’s got their start someone, everyone has a day 1 and everyone has a learning curve. These few raving togs are just in denial about that fact and need to get off their high horse.
Did i miss something here? It’s the contest winners big dream to shoot a big time game? From what i know about pro sports photographers, they don’t just shoot their favorite teams. If FSU denies a pass, whats preventing the opportunity of shooting the hundreds of other big name college teams around the nation? You can’t shop around for a different venue.. with a name like Scott Kelby, there should be hundreds of connections in the industry to get in another stadium!! (maybe even on a NFL field! )
I am still thinking about how this whole scenario played out. When I first read the news that Alex Walker couldn’t participate in shooting on the sidelines due to some “professional photographers” who complained to FSU, I was outraged. I am still upset, but I am calmer now for the way things have worked out for the better.
Anyway, I kept thinking about the whole fiasco more and more, and I think one of the best therapies is to write. So, I wrote a summary of what has happened in my blog post called “The Cost of Something.” It has been mentioned in the comments here, but those photographers who vehemently opposed Alex joining them on the sidelines had an agenda to fill. Yet as Scott Kelby pointed out, at the end of the day, their actions would cost them *nothing* (except, perhaps, their reputation). It would cost Alex the opportunity of a lifetime; I am so glad people have chimed in with their thoughts, encouragement, and even offers of their own to let Alex fulfill his dreams.
Anyway, I think Scott Kelby readers would enjoy this post, as I also talk about how the old adage of “sharing is caring” is so true these days (thanks Scott to what you’re doing every day with this blog)!
Sincerely,
~Eugene
This is why we grow unjustifiably complacent in our image making. I know the kind of sports shooters who raise hell about these sorts of things and, in some instances, they’re right when they seek to limit access to sporting events. However, 80% of the time they’re just trying to guarantee future work for themselves. I too have been shooting a local sports event and saw some young kid with a canon rebel and felt threatened. Is this kid going to get better shots than me? What if he’s more creative? What if he’s got an angle that I’ve overlooked?
At the end of the day, however, the best practice is not to eliminate the competition through petty politics with a university, nor to complain to other elitist sports photographers on a Website, but to start working harder and find that creativity, find those angles, and constantly be fluid with one’s photography. We do not capture images for ourselves, but for an audience. That audience deserves the absolute best image possible, so having motivation to go at it with more vigor is a good thing, I say.
…especially during these regular season games.
Wow, what a bunch of jerks! I know I would have been extremely peeved if I were the winner of the contest. But since you have an assistant credential to give to whoever you want, why not just silently give it to the winner for another game? Who will know until it’s too later? mwahahaha!
The most comprehensive list of A-hole photographers in America is the membership of sportsshooters.com. (Not all of them, for sure, but it’s a site I never will visit again.)
I work on the sidelines for 30 years for NFL and SEC and SI. I have help many photographer get on the sideline, sound like the world has changed. If you are good you don’t have to worry. There always some people who think they are professional but are just people for are afraid of losing their job because they are not “shooters”
Sound like a pack of wolfs who are afraid someone is way better than them. Let the new kid shoot that how I got started 35 years ago with the NFL and SEC and SI. they are not shooters they are want a be. If you are good enoiugh you get the work. We all die one day and someone will replace you. I have a bunch of shooters I helped get thier foot in. They call me for jobs all the time. I walk on a NFL field and they shake my hand out of repect.